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JASON COLEMAN

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A structural engineer with a love for tech, politics, science, and culture.
Articles Posted: 8  Links Seeded: 1601
Member Since: 1/2006  Last Seen: 8/04/2011

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The (Continuing) Tragedy of the Commons

Seeded on Mon Dec 4, 2006 10:10 AM EST
Read ArticleArticle Source: seedmagazine.com
science, environment, global-warming, greenvine, ecology
Seeded by Jason Coleman
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Local communities can help preserve the world's forests.

For more than a century, the world's forests have been under siege—by the timber industry, by the wild mushroom and maple syrup industries, by agricultural development, and even by millions of indigenous people living at the forests' borders. Disappearing forests mean disappearing habitats for thousands of species.

Ecologists say the loss is especially tragic in the face of our planet's recent warming. Trees act as natural air conditioners: Warm tree leaves release water, the water evaporates, and the atmosphere cools. What's more, today's tropical forests store half a century of global carbon emissions in their trunks.

"Forests have a tremendous amount of biodiversity, both biologically and culturally," said tropical forest ecologist Daniel Nepstad of The Woods Hole Research Center in Massachusetts. "The health of the planet depends on these ecosystems. So the question of how you keep them standing is quite critical."

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  • Groups: Climate Change
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  • Public Discussion (8)
K.Hodge

I thought water vapour resulted in a greenhouse effect?

  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Mon Dec 4, 2006 6:13 PM EST
Benno Hansen

How?

If you wash your clothes and dry it on a rack (don't know how to say this in English and don't bother looking it up right now) in your room, notice how the temperature drops while you are seeding articles to Newsvine ;)

    #1.1 - Mon Dec 4, 2006 6:48 PM EST
    Benno Hansen

    Ah... you are thinking in the atmosphere. Seed is talking while evaporating. Right?

      #1.2 - Mon Dec 4, 2006 6:56 PM EST
      Reply
      Cash

      KH, generally speaking, if it's a site run by Adam Bly ( he runs that one and scienceblogs.com ) you can bet they just throw stuff out there. I think these sites have some value, just like right wing sites do ... but they tend to make gross misstatements like this. Somehow these special trees are storing energy and emitting energy and cooling the planet at the same time while never warming it at all. They're magic trees.

      Some VCs in Canada gave him quite a bit of money to start the print version so they believe that activist science is here to stay. We'll see. The internet is a much different critter than print.

        Reply#2 - Mon Dec 4, 2006 7:17 PM EST
        Jason Coleman

        Well, yes, water vapor is a greenhouse gas (a little more here, as well) and no, it's not really that important to what this article is about. I'm not interested in going into it here, since I consider it tangential at best, but the observed spike in warming is highly unlikely to be caused by something so relatively constant as vegetation and naturally occurring water vapor. My apologies if the "global warming" tag and my placing this in the "Climate Change" group was confusing. Those two topics are related, but not the focus of this article. I will try and keep seeds to that (and other groups) more specific in the future.

        As for the source of the article, if you don't like it, don't read it. I'm not going to make apologies for a periodical or its website. If the fact it's on the internet bothers you… well, the irony there is just to obvious. However, what if other sites backed up these points (not that you were remotely specific enough for me to even try to find out if they do, so I won't)? The point is, if you don't trust the source then find one that you do instead of just dismiss them out of hand. Where does contradictory information come from? Why is that a more reliable source? K.Hodge and I have had that conversation several times and I feel we've come to an understanding even though we disagree on several points on the science issues. I still respect that he his opinion is formed from looking at evidence and not just reciting contrarian bullet points.

        Now that that tangent is beat to death: As for the article, does anyone have any thoughts on the application of game theory to maintaining public lands? What about the findings that seemed to contradict game theory?

        • 1 vote
        Reply#3 - Tue Dec 5, 2006 8:54 AM EST
        Cash

        So you would read an environmental article on Rush Limbaugh's website? Or Exxon's? That's interesting. You're one of very few people who doesn't want to put information in its context. It's certainly refreshing, since you read every article out there and take them all on their merits without any bias. Not many people do that.

        You seem to be in the business of attacking anyone who is skeptical about something you want to believe. That's okay, of course - I attack anyone who manipulates science toward their politics so there are a few sites ( Seed Media is one ) that are about as valid to me as Rush Limbaugh or Exxon is to you. Either way, you have expressed a preference not to be read further in your latest frustrated barb so I will honor it.

          #3.1 - Tue Dec 5, 2006 11:35 AM EST
          Jason Coleman

          Okay, so let's put this in "context." Adam Bly has some credentials as a researcher and has I see no reason to doubt he has the cabability to start a successful science publication (newsstands as evidence), either online or in print. The people who write at scienceblogs.com are also all equally accomplished researchers and journalists. However, other than being editor-in-cheif, I think you are assigning too much of this particular article to him. The article's author is Virginia Hughs, an intern at Seed Magazine. I currently have no reason to doubt that she is a qualified journalist to write on this issue for a popular science publication.

          As for my not putting information in context, I fail to see how you found that in what I wrote. To the contrary, I asked that if you do not trust this source (I have no reason not to), then what do you trust and what do they say on the matter?

          I don't know that I have or have not commented on Rush Limbaugh or Exxon or what context I might place any environmental article written by them. First, Mr. Limbaugh is an authority on nothing and has no formal training of any kind to my knowledge. He is simply a on-air entertainer who performs for right-wing interests. I generally do dismiss anything of his out of hand as he, to my knowledge, does not do any research or journalism per se, but rather opinion and commentary. Exxon is a business that while they certainly do R&D, I am not aware of any environmental publications which they produce. However, they are not just one person and they do, I'm sure, hire experts in a variety of fields who are qualified to write on such topics.

          As for the "business" I am in, this is just a fun pastime for me and far from being my business. You, on the other hand, do write for a site called Scientific Blogging, don't you? Would it be fair for me to say that Mr. Bly's online blog site is a competitor of yours? Would it be true that having less people read his site would be beneficial to you? Even if that isn't the case, I find Seed and it's site to be credible. You presented no evidence to the contrary. That you take my saying so as an attack is disappointing and really not the case. If you have some evidence that either points out why Seed is not credible or why this article in particular is incorrect, please present it. So far, you have failed to do so. You boast of "attack[ing] anyone who manipulates science toward their politics" yet you have only provided attacks without any evidence to suggest that anyone has manipulated anything towards any political agenda.

          • 2 votes
          #3.2 - Tue Dec 5, 2006 12:04 PM EST
          K.Hodge

          First, Mr. Limbaugh is an authority on nothing and has no formal training of any kind to my knowledge. He is simply a on-air entertainer who performs for right-wing interests. I generally do dismiss anything of his out of hand as he, to my knowledge, does not do any research or journalism per se, but rather opinion and commentary. Exxon is a business that while they certainly do R&D, I am not aware of any environmental publications which they produce. However, they are not just one person and they do, I'm sure, hire experts in a variety of fields who are qualified to write on such topics.

          That is awesome.

          Sorry to sidetrack the point of the article. I read the whole thing, but was too distracted by this sentence,

          Warm tree leaves release water, the water evaporates, and the atmosphere cools.

          to actually give the rest of the article its due merit. I understand this article is taken from an economist's point of view, but it re-enforces the point that one should stick to the topic their writing about, instead of first trying to prove why your article is important.

          Now for the article, I think that Hardin's basic premise is correct using game theory. Although they are trying to say that the commons are a finite resource. I think the problem with Game theory seems to be that its not completely based in the real world, there are all sorts of intangibles that can't be taken into account, as wall as the fact that its hard to establish how much one thing might help a company. While I admit that my study of Game theory was limited to the basics in Economics classes I've taken, from what I've seen its a very nice principle, but seems to be easily contradicted with real world events.

          In the basic case, if there are 2 competing grocery stores, if one starts to advertise it increases the number of people through the store by x% and revenue goes up, but if both start to advertise there is no change, and revenue actually goes down because of the spending on advertising. This doesn't take into account that one companies advertising may be better than anothers? or serve to highlight how much better one company does business than another. Also there is the prospect that the advertising from both companies might foster a desire among people who don't normally shop there for those types of products(consumerism, buying products you don't need because you feel you need them).

          The article points to flaws in the way things are being managed now, so there are probably better ways to go about protecting the commons, what they are though I do not know.

          p.s. Jason, do you have any links to the findings about game theory being flawed?

          • 3 votes
          #3.3 - Tue Dec 5, 2006 7:55 PM EST
          Reply
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